He's right, I'm wrong: his thoughts about recognizing internet comic fan communities are legit.
I'm of the mind that David Mack tried to get away with a copyright violation pawned off as an original cover, regardless of how nice a guy he is. But for crying out loud, do you all have to continue to yell at the top of your lungs about this and insult any creators that seem to not want to be rabid pitbulls on the issue?
Friday, March 28, 2008
I Owe Mike Choi An Apology
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HAH! I just came to a conclusion that I posted right before coming here and seeing that.
ReplyDeleteWhat you posted there is absolutely in the right of whoever said it. It's me that shouldn't have been there. Message boards aren't DESIGNED to provide feedback to creators. It's primarily a forum for people to talk, and as long as it follows mod rules, anything is valid. Unfortunately, that underscores the reason why public messageboards like newsarama and cbr should NOT be relied on for feedback, and you sure as hell should be IN it. You're just ruining people's fun. Now I still don't understand why bashing is fun, but it literally isn't my business.
There are of course forums where people can provide feedback. I have a deviant art site where I allow comments from fellow artists, professional or otherwise. My aim account is pretty much public knowledge, as is my email.
Here's an easy way to see it. I hate George Bush enough to say it to my girlfriend, but not enough to write a letter to the White House. That is your typical internet fan. The people who care enough to initiate change will find a way to do it.
Who'd a thought we'd pretty much swap sides on this? ;)
ReplyDeleteTo continue our winding up on opposing sides constantly, I think you privately having a conversation with your girlfriend about George Bush is different than a rabid message board poster that can't even slightly acknowledge another person's right to disagree.
Do make sure to let me know if you change your mind on the matter so I can determine if we're still doing this diametric opposition thing. ;)
For once I agree with you khux.
ReplyDeleteThe people that posted on that thread are douchebags.
That would be a merry game...
ReplyDeleteBut that's the thing, which I realized. When you have group of rabid message board posters that can't even slightly acknowledge another person's right to disagree, why are YOU even there saying anything? It's obviously the wrong forum for you. It's the reason why a lot of people seem to be pro-newsarama and anti-newsarama. If Newsarama message boards were neutral, the camps wouldn't exist. You either like to participate in the rabidness or you don't. It's why I tend to steer clear from cbr and newsarama, and go to Millarworld and the Bendis board instead.
Right after I apologized and admitted to the newsarama message board about overstepping boundaries, and getting on a high horse, I got this:
"choi, you mention that mack's swipes doesn't bother you because he didn't swipe any of your stuff...why would he swipe from you? i don't seem to recall you doing anything that would inspire someone to swipe from you.."
Come on... you play with people like that and get roughed up, that's your fault.
I do have a problem with the extistence of people like that. Why I think it's in people's nature to hate first. But that's neither here nor there. They're there. Unless something happens to change them you just have to steer clear or get your hand bitten off.
If my girlfriend's the kind of girl to bite off hands for political talk, I shouldn't be telling her I hate George Bush either :)
Heh...I just meant your act of talking with your girlfriend is different from that rabid poster's act...and I forgot what the point was of mentioning that earlier.
ReplyDeleteBut now I get where you're coming from. You're in the wrong for posting in there because you waded into a sanitarium and expected to find sane, rational discourse. Gotcha.
But I'll still manage to disagree about whether CBR and Newsarama are neutral or not. I think their neutrality is why their worst moments can get to be so bad. I think other boards are more peaceful specifically because they do lean towards a side.
Graeme over at Blog@ makes a killing off posting that bashes the works of a company not represented on the Bendis Boards to a degree that wouldn't be allowed otherwise. But since those other boards are more of a collection of people who are like-minded on many subjects, disagreements are only going to get but so heated.
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ReplyDeleteHeh...I'm not judging EVERYONE in that thread...I didn't read through all of the last few days' worth of posts. At times it has been civil, even if it has never been subtle. But some in there are foaming at the mouth...
ReplyDeleteHi Strangefool,
ReplyDeleteI don't remember you on the thread. "Cleveland Steamer" and "Dirty Sanchez"? My mind is racked with possibilities, but I don't think I want to know. Okay, I do. But not enough to go there again.
The problem as a creator is that you think of the internet community as fans or prospective fans. So you want to give them what they want AND you want to stand up for yourself. The unfortunate things is that the most recommended action of staying away means you're not doing either.
As much as I'd like to know what someone thinks of my involvement with cleveland steamers or dirty sanchezs (I don't know what they are, other than it's sexual and I think it has something to do with poo), I can't find out. Otherwise I'll be tempted to stand up for myself to people who don't care and will only use that as more ammunition.
If you think less of me because of my involvement on newsarama I'm sorry. I meant the apology to everyone for wasting their time and spoiling their fun, as well as the one to Greg O for giving him a tirade on the Bendis board which was subsequently deleted (although someone on newsarama sweaars he saved it and was subtly trying to blackmail me, so I just repeated what I said in the tirade to the best of my knowledge just to have it out there, and again apologize to Greg O) because I thought he was just a brain dead troll who was just being a dick (he was actually trying to make a point, and when I called him out on his rudeness, he actually apologized first - an internet rarity I believe). I shouldn't have gone there in the first place.
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ReplyDeleteKevin,
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you something though. If Graeme bashes the living crap out of a comic book, I mean in a really nasty way, sure it helps readers make up their minds. But would you expect the company and creators to be able to use the information there to improve themselves? Not if they could, but if they would.
If you read my blog, I refer to a journalista entry from last year regarding my cover to X-Men 204. I've grown to respect Dirk Deppey. I go to his website every day. I'm actually disappointed when he doesn't post. His website is how I found your blog.
Every single point Dirk made in his entry had a point. He didn't lie or make anything up. But the post he made was so full of vitriol and sarcasm, I couldn't take any of it seriously. It seemed almost personal. It's a strange reactive phenomenon, and maybe it's just me, but if I had to believe some of it, I had to believe ALL of it. I had to believe I was a "hack". I had to believe that something Sonia and I put of lot of work into was "a piece of shit." And maybe I am and it was, but if I believed that then I'd have to quit now.
Now if he'd said all of his points calmly and in a straight forward way, he could be as brutal as he wanted to be (which he was, until he told me to strip down in front of a mirror because I obviously couldn't imagine what he was going to say without visuals), as long as he wasn't insulting, and as Deppey was, extremely condescending, I'd take all of his points. It's the reason my male figures look less like the 12-year old boys (hopefully) that they looked like in X-23, because someone told me in a straight-forward manner, "You shouldn't draw men like 12-year-old boys because it ruins the storytelling." Bam, lesson learned.
There's a difference between the brutal pointing out of every mistake kind of bashing, and the let's do everything we can to insult this comic bashing. As long as it's not insulting, it can be as brutal as it wants.
If certain message boards don't allow that kind of brutality, well, that's a shame. Gratuitous praising is just as obvious as brutal dismissal. I think that if a comment is said without malice, it's valid, no matter what it is, because at worst it's opinion. And if you can't tell whether or not something is malicious when you're writing it, you shouldn't be writing.
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ReplyDeleteHAH!... I'm learning to do that now... It's Friday night and I'm catching up on work I didn't do when I was on message boards!... and on here talking to Kevin ;)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Kevin, I'm repeating everything said on here on my blog if that's cool, I've linked to you from my blog, although I think only 3 people ever go to my blog and you're one of them :)
And PS, I STILL want to make love to you, you sexy man.
Hey...any linking is welcome.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean that Graeme was bashing...but reading what you've said on the topic has led me to change my mind about the somewhat-biased boards. While they might be more prone to letting bashing get out of hand on items and companies they don't have a vested interest in, they do tend to allow a certain amount of the brutal pointing out of every mistake you mentioned.
And you only want to make love to me when you're drunk or I'm reading your blog. You cad!