Listening to the unabridged version of Kirkman's Manifesto and then his WordBalloon interview with John Siuntres(both actually in John's Kirkman episode), I started Twittering in the middle of my workout at the gym. In the midst of it, Jamaal Thomas (of the mighty Funny Book Babylon) started Twittering about the same and sparked a bit of a debate about it. I had so much fun that it's one of the few times I was glad someone had conflicting opinion. ;)
khuxford Wait, Kirkman wants the big two to focus on teens? Do we really think it's too complex for literate teens now? khuxford Wow, nice job, CBR: you edited out the part where Kirkman concedes that maybe some wouldn't be happier his way. khuxford Ok, CBR, maybe it balances out: edited out that big two might be treating creators too nice and paying too much, also.
khuxford Wait, Kirkman says you have to jump in, then says there's nothing wrong with doing both? This is PR BS. khuxford Tackle one problem at a time, but you choose content for kids before figuring out how to get to them? Ugh. khuxford Kirkman is just rambling, modifying stances on the fly. You shouldn't be spitballing without forethought at this level. khuxford Ugh! How does Kirkman miss the idea that mature books were fine for him at 14? It's not complexity that is the issue. khuxford Wait. Name creators can go back to big two if creator stuff fails? For chump change after big two go unknowns? Argh! 
jamaal30 @khuxford I think that a lot of people forget that creators are not scholars or p/r people. There's bound to be some inconsistencies jamaal30 This wordballoon w/ kirkman is interesting.. I don't think that he's effectively communicating his 'take the plunge' point
khuxford It's a shame that everyone will try Destroyer Max and Killraven instead of his stuff because he's not all in. khuxford @Jamaal30 it isn't just inconsistent: he directly contradicts himself every few minutes. 180 degree differences. khuxford @Jamaal30 you have to admit: @johnwordballoon pressed for depth in Kirkman's answers like you wanted on Van Sciver. :) jamaal30 @khuxford from what I'm hearing, he's presenting arguments, and backing down when confronted with facts that undermine it jamaal30 @khuxford and I don't know if we're listening to the same podcasr, but I feel like he's making a pretty coherent argument jamaal30 @khuxford it's not a perfect argument, but that's the nature if all big picture theories
jamaal30 @khuxford he did a great job khuxford @Jamaal30 I heard him say leave WFH completely, then backed off, then said you can't give reader Spidey and other 2 pick jamaal30 @khuxford When he was tallking about Spidey, he was contrasting it w/ Invincible. jamaal30 @khuxford If you give a reader a choice between two similar books, it's likely that they'll choose the most familiar one jamaal30 In comparison, if you have say, one of hickman's WFH books vs. one of his Image books, the differences are more pronounced jamaal30 not to mention the fact that he was talking about an ideal (do all creator owned), while acknowledging that one cant generalize
khuxford @Jamaal30 props for using "American exceptionalism" in comic book podcast. If I had a group podcast, FBB'd be the model. khuxford @jamaal30 Funny, he didn't say Invincible that I remember. I still contend that people are watering down what he said when praising it. khuxford @jamaal30 You're coming up with an explanation like you're trying to win a No Prize. ;) He contradicted himself all over the place. jamaal30 @khuxford you're holding him to a ridiculously high standard, like he's a politician or a ceo. i just dont think the 'contradictions' matter khuxford @jamaal30 They do. How do you expect to have your ideas treated seriously when you put so little thought into them? khuxford @jamaal30 The contradictions, also, matter if you can't actually pull one coherent message out, instead of 3-4 competing ideas. jamaal30 He does have a coherent message - creators should do more creator-owned work, particularly if they've been contemplating it. jamaal30 All the other stuff is window dressing. Btw, being treated seriously by who? Us? Bendis? I don't think mid tier guys are dismissing him khuxford @jamaal30 First they have to drop all WFH, then they don't, then having choice of WFH or CO will always have fans buy the WFH khuxford @jamaal30 DC & Marvel have to go all unknowns and do all kid appropriate, then name creators can still do WFH there, then big two can do... khuxford @jamaal30 mature lines or graphic novels of their "all kid appropriate" characters. Where are the artists in this? jamaal30 @khuxford He's trying to explain that the risk of going CO isn't as high as they might think. So if people want to go back, they can jamaal30 @khuxford Yeah, the second part of his argument relates to his theories about the future of the industry and the audience khuxford @jamaal30 That's one of the umpteen different versions of his idea he runs through. It's the one you picked out of the many. khuxford @jamaal30 But he contradicts himself all over the place, leaving no clear, definitive position. jamaal30 it isnt really convincing b/c he has no real business experience, but i think lots of comic fans have serious status quo bias khuxford @jamaal30 Yeah, but he means for that argument to be used in conjunction with the 1st one, yet they don't match up at all. jamaal30 I think that he has a pretty clear position - one about the creators, one about the business. khuxford @jamaal30 Umm...pretty sure Kirkman said this argument was for top flight creators. Mentioned that midtier might not be good enough. jamaal30 All of the things that you wrote as 'contradictions' were his efforts to refine his argument, or illustrate that the transition is less jamaal30 painful than people think it is. so he says, you dont have to look at being the writer/artist on ASM as the pinnacle of your career jamaal30 after listening to the interview, i really dont agree with you re top flight creators khuxford @jamaal30 All due respect, no they weren't. Each "refinement" contradicted the prior one & often backtracked to an earlier "unrefined" point khuxford @jamaal30 The conversation that has started is great, but I'm saying he should have "refined" his ideas before popping off at the mouth. jamaal30 maybe he'll hire a speechwriter next time jamaal30 @khuxford His inability to properly articulate his ideas doesn't mean that we should completely dismiss them. I dont want to play gotcha khuxford @jamaal30 I just have an anti-pollyanna bias. Kirkman's argument is like Trump saying, "you too can make millions in real estate!" khuxford @jamaal30 Well, you missed it. He spoke of how some writers are middle of the road and get jobs more through history with editors. jamaal30 @khuxford But you too can make millions in real estate. khuxford @jamaal30 And he argued that all the people who get so much freedom at DC & Marvel should go creator-owned. Those are top flight only. jamaal30 @khuxford This whole thing is aimed at guys like him, but I guess we can agree to disagree on that. khuxford @jamaal30 Ha! But it's as much the lottery ticket shot as John devil advocate'd Kirkman's creator owned argument. ;) khuxford @jamaal30 I gotcha. I just feel it goes beyond communication issues to failure of critical thinking. khuxford @jamaal30 and his lack of forethought/consistency makes me think he spouted it out quickly for the attention rather than the mission khuxford @jamaal30 Anyway, sorry to make you feel like I'm trying to play gotcha
Sunday, August 17, 2008
Kirkman WordBalloon & A Twitter Discussion
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